Community - The Heart of Antiquity
Combat, Trade, Roleplay Systems
Greetings all,
In the past few weeks, I have heard a multitude of complaints about SPD, and the desire to find a new system which offers more reliable and honest gameplay with a variety of new features and options. There are a few people working on developing new systems, and others evaluating a variety of existing systems, and there seems to be a lot of mystery and intrigue surrounding the whole business. :)
Personally, I would absolutely love to see SPD replaced. A couple of years ago, I had planned to develop my own combat system based on the age of sail. I had worked out quite a few options, and sketched out rough idea of what I would love to see incorporated. I will outline what my vision for a fully featured "Age of Sail" system should include towards the bottom of this post.
I don't know how much community polling there has been to see what should or should not be worked into a system for use in Antiquity, but I think it would be a good idea to get a general feel for what people would like to see incorporated. As with any SL community, you will find a wide range of opinions and levels of interest for just about any aspect of Antiquity. Some people are here strictly for naval combat. Others are here strictly to roleplay, and have no interest in combat at all. And still others want to do both to some degree or another.
In my original concept for a naval combat system, I had not incorporated much in the way of RP supportive features. I've spent the last week giving the whole idea a lot of thought, and I have come up with a list of things I would absolutely love to include in a system, should I script one.
The Combat/Trade/Roleplay System
Any system which is intended to replace SPD must be at minimally compatible to it, allowing people who have SPD and do not wish to change to participate on some level in basic naval combat. After testing out SPD with the design of a new system in mind, and seeing how many flaws and exploits there are in SPD, I have come to the conclusion that any new system must be very carefully designed to prevent SPD exploitation from effecting the new system in combat. I have some ideas penned out on how to handle this efficiently and reliably, should I develop a new system. Ideally, SPD compatibility would be a non-issue, but if people prefer the new system to be compatible... it could be (to some degree).
I would love to incorporate various types of cannon shot, such as round, grape, bar, and explosive for example. In addition to the various types of shot, a couple of different qualities of powder should also be included. Better powder means better range. Each ship would be supplied with a "depot" to repair, refit, and reload. The depot is supplied by default with round shot and basic powder, so when your ship runs out of ammunition you can return to port and reload! Additional shot types, as well as differing qualities of powder, can be loaded into the depot once you get them. That's right folks... you can run out of ammunition, and the only way to get more is to find a depot and reload!
Grape shot would be used for anti-personnel assault against ground troops, but is limited in range.
Bar shot would be used to disable a ship by snapping its masts. This provides ship builders with an opportunity to incorporate some interesting special effects. :)
Explosive shot could be used to destroy cannon, though round shot could do so with a direct hit. Explosive would also do damage to troops, set fires (which could be extinguished, or burn out lol), and could be used to do heavy damage to ships. The explosive shot would need to be much harder to get than the other types to keep things reasonable.
The various types of powder and shot would be available from players who manufacture them using a "workbench" using parts gathered in the wild (think 7 seas fishing game). These parts could also be traded. This opens up the possibility for bartering or outright trade of goods, and could be used to increase the value of the merchant trade which is already in development by another party. All of this is optional, of course, as round shot and basic powder would be included with the depot.
Musket balls should do no damage to ships or cannon. The fact that that some SPD compatible ships can be damaged by a flintlock pistol is a little odd, don't you think? :)
As for melee & small arms, there are a variety of ways to go about implementing health and weapon scripts. Health can be hud based, or based in a health meter worn like in SPD. The benefit of the hud system, is an easier to read display offering the potential for more information and integrated combat systems with the hud. With a single device, health, sailing, gunnery, and small arms systems could be controlled. Small arms, such as flintlock pistols and muskets, would work similarly to how they now function... except that they won't sink ships or damage cannon. ;) I haven't really fleshed out the best way to handle melee scripting yet. I had not yet pondered melee in my original concept, and I have heard conflicting opinions on the preference for scripted melee weapons, or scripted weapon sensor.
The overall plan here, would be to provide a dynamic combat system providing better reliability and honest gameplay, while introducing new elements of play for those who wish to do more than sail, shoot, and RP about it. The "crafter" style gamer would be welcomed into the fold, and a new value would be added to merchant trade. This opens up a whole new level of interaction between pirates and those protecting trade routes.
Another interesting idea which I think would be nice is the introduction of capture points. A scripted version of capture the flag, allowing various factions to fight for territory within Antiquity. I haven't really fleshed this idea out much yet, but it has potential. ;)
Anyway, I have run out of time for now, so I will take this opportunity to invite you all to comment. Thoughts? Suggestions? Let's here them!
* EDIT *
I can't believe I forgot to mention one of my favorite feature suggestions!
Grappling Hooks! That's right folks, with the introduction of this feature, incapacitating a ship as more meaning to it than simply turning a vessel into a sitting duck. Incapacitate a ship, and move in close. Throw a grappling hook and tie up with the target ship. Once the ships are bound, the ship being grappled automatically unsits the crew. Board the ship, and do combat! Once the captain of the vessel is either dead or more than a certain distance from the vessel, you can plunder its hold and/or scuttle the ship!
In the past few weeks, I have heard a multitude of complaints about SPD, and the desire to find a new system which offers more reliable and honest gameplay with a variety of new features and options. There are a few people working on developing new systems, and others evaluating a variety of existing systems, and there seems to be a lot of mystery and intrigue surrounding the whole business. :)
Personally, I would absolutely love to see SPD replaced. A couple of years ago, I had planned to develop my own combat system based on the age of sail. I had worked out quite a few options, and sketched out rough idea of what I would love to see incorporated. I will outline what my vision for a fully featured "Age of Sail" system should include towards the bottom of this post.
I don't know how much community polling there has been to see what should or should not be worked into a system for use in Antiquity, but I think it would be a good idea to get a general feel for what people would like to see incorporated. As with any SL community, you will find a wide range of opinions and levels of interest for just about any aspect of Antiquity. Some people are here strictly for naval combat. Others are here strictly to roleplay, and have no interest in combat at all. And still others want to do both to some degree or another.
In my original concept for a naval combat system, I had not incorporated much in the way of RP supportive features. I've spent the last week giving the whole idea a lot of thought, and I have come up with a list of things I would absolutely love to include in a system, should I script one.
The Combat/Trade/Roleplay System
Any system which is intended to replace SPD must be at minimally compatible to it, allowing people who have SPD and do not wish to change to participate on some level in basic naval combat. After testing out SPD with the design of a new system in mind, and seeing how many flaws and exploits there are in SPD, I have come to the conclusion that any new system must be very carefully designed to prevent SPD exploitation from effecting the new system in combat. I have some ideas penned out on how to handle this efficiently and reliably, should I develop a new system. Ideally, SPD compatibility would be a non-issue, but if people prefer the new system to be compatible... it could be (to some degree).
I would love to incorporate various types of cannon shot, such as round, grape, bar, and explosive for example. In addition to the various types of shot, a couple of different qualities of powder should also be included. Better powder means better range. Each ship would be supplied with a "depot" to repair, refit, and reload. The depot is supplied by default with round shot and basic powder, so when your ship runs out of ammunition you can return to port and reload! Additional shot types, as well as differing qualities of powder, can be loaded into the depot once you get them. That's right folks... you can run out of ammunition, and the only way to get more is to find a depot and reload!
Grape shot would be used for anti-personnel assault against ground troops, but is limited in range.
Bar shot would be used to disable a ship by snapping its masts. This provides ship builders with an opportunity to incorporate some interesting special effects. :)
Explosive shot could be used to destroy cannon, though round shot could do so with a direct hit. Explosive would also do damage to troops, set fires (which could be extinguished, or burn out lol), and could be used to do heavy damage to ships. The explosive shot would need to be much harder to get than the other types to keep things reasonable.
The various types of powder and shot would be available from players who manufacture them using a "workbench" using parts gathered in the wild (think 7 seas fishing game). These parts could also be traded. This opens up the possibility for bartering or outright trade of goods, and could be used to increase the value of the merchant trade which is already in development by another party. All of this is optional, of course, as round shot and basic powder would be included with the depot.
Musket balls should do no damage to ships or cannon. The fact that that some SPD compatible ships can be damaged by a flintlock pistol is a little odd, don't you think? :)
As for melee & small arms, there are a variety of ways to go about implementing health and weapon scripts. Health can be hud based, or based in a health meter worn like in SPD. The benefit of the hud system, is an easier to read display offering the potential for more information and integrated combat systems with the hud. With a single device, health, sailing, gunnery, and small arms systems could be controlled. Small arms, such as flintlock pistols and muskets, would work similarly to how they now function... except that they won't sink ships or damage cannon. ;) I haven't really fleshed out the best way to handle melee scripting yet. I had not yet pondered melee in my original concept, and I have heard conflicting opinions on the preference for scripted melee weapons, or scripted weapon sensor.
The overall plan here, would be to provide a dynamic combat system providing better reliability and honest gameplay, while introducing new elements of play for those who wish to do more than sail, shoot, and RP about it. The "crafter" style gamer would be welcomed into the fold, and a new value would be added to merchant trade. This opens up a whole new level of interaction between pirates and those protecting trade routes.
Another interesting idea which I think would be nice is the introduction of capture points. A scripted version of capture the flag, allowing various factions to fight for territory within Antiquity. I haven't really fleshed this idea out much yet, but it has potential. ;)
Anyway, I have run out of time for now, so I will take this opportunity to invite you all to comment. Thoughts? Suggestions? Let's here them!
* EDIT *
I can't believe I forgot to mention one of my favorite feature suggestions!
Grappling Hooks! That's right folks, with the introduction of this feature, incapacitating a ship as more meaning to it than simply turning a vessel into a sitting duck. Incapacitate a ship, and move in close. Throw a grappling hook and tie up with the target ship. Once the ships are bound, the ship being grappled automatically unsits the crew. Board the ship, and do combat! Once the captain of the vessel is either dead or more than a certain distance from the vessel, you can plunder its hold and/or scuttle the ship!
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by GaiaGirl Pearl on -
are you talking about replacing the SPD melee system or the system used by the SPD ships themselves? If you're talking about replacing ships, thats a big investment for some of us - any change from SPD would sink me completely. I'm not trying to be negative, this is a good post ~ but I do need to highlight that any change off SPD-compat ships would be cost prohibitive for many of us.
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Permalink Reply by Burnman Bedlam on -
I purchased an SPD Frigate last week, trust me, I don't want to lose my L$3500. :)
The new system would replace both SPD melee, ship, and small arms systems, but provide some compatibility with them. Advanced features such as combat statistics, different types of powder and shot, or any other feature of such a proposed system would not be available on an unmodified SPD ship. If my initial testing of the SPD ship system proves to be accurate, you would be able to use your SPD ship without losing your existing functionality.
Development kits for ship builders, small arms manufacturers, and swordsmiths would be made available for little to no cost. Chances are that I would provide these kits to Antiquity developers at no charge as my contribution to the community. Any items needed to participate using this system... (whatever ends up being used for the health meter, etc) ...would be provided to players/roleplayers at no charge. If I do go forward with this project, I will do my best to make sure nobody gets left behind.
Oh! I can't believe I forgot to mention one of my favorite new feature suggestions! Since many of the people I have spoken with about combat systems have mentioned a desire for ship boarding and melee combat on deck... I hashed out an idea for just that! I will edit the original post in this thread to include the idea in more detail. Look for it at the bottom. ;)
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Permalink Reply by Burnman Bedlam on
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Thank you for the well wishings! I certainly would not wish to see anyone lose a dime in a transition from one system to another. Any system I create for use in naval combat will certainly take this into account. I certainly welcome any and all feedback, it's the most important part of the process. :)
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Permalink Reply by Drake Moyer on -
I'm not a sailor, but the breech in SPD does not seem to effect the ships too much given that they just fire a cannon ball. Sure as one person did they made a machine gun rate cannon, to be an anti briefing weapon, or so they said;) it would be hard to make compatible with another system and what the ladies say is very correct, this area has a huge investment. Sure would like to see something else one day, that uses less scrpits and prims for smoother use in numbers.
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Permalink Reply by Burnman Bedlam on
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I am confident that I can address many of these issues with a new system, and provide basic compatibility with SPD without compromising the new system, or threatening anyone's investment. :)
I will be working on proof of concept, with the hopes of proving my theories correct. If I am able, I will continue with developing the system fully and introducing it for testing.
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Permalink Reply by Quintus Beaumont on -
This all sounds very promising, Mr Bedlam. As pointed out somewhere else in this Ning, the management team of Antiquity is currently exploring the possibilities to replace SPD by another system. Various options are reviewed. I'll soon contact you inworld to see if your ideas can be proposed as one of these options. Thank you very much for this inspiring post.
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Permalink Reply by Burnman Bedlam on
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You're very welcome! I look forward to hearing from you in-world. Take care :)
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Permalink Reply by Alanxo Etchegaray on -
All this seems very confusing, as the debate illustrates, despite all the goodwill shown by the initiators of this eagerly awaited.
Everyone has noted that if the SPD system was unique and remarkable for the equipment of sailing warships, it didn’t at all, today for the requirements of combat on land, with the constraints due the lag in SL.
So, before embarking on development of a new meter, even if it is promising, it should be a reflection on what the community expects with this new tool.
This is the only solution to bring the agreement of all components of our little universe. Any other approach will cause a rejection from the factions that have not been involved in the development of the new meter, and this, whatever its qualities. This is human.
We propose, therefore, the creation of a working group to study, select, or elaborate the solution.
This group would be composed of one representative from each faction:
Quintus Beaumont or Eddy Cannonball, for example, for the pirates.
Alonzo Roca or Delacanardire Pera, for example, for the French.
Pamus Bing, for example, for Finlandia.
Drake Moyer, for example, for Citadel.
Etc ...
But, manufacturers of weapons SPD, which we all have and who will, ultimately, develop their products:
Drake Moyer, Pegleg, Kent, Chase Specullas, Sera ... etc
Any disputes will be settled by the highest authority of Antiquity, Gregg Barimore himself or his appointed representative.
First Mission: Define the characteristics expected of the tool:
-Open-source?
-Inability to easily cheat by simple checking by the "referees"
-Hud or no Hud
-etc ...
Second mission: test all the existing meter noting objectively by assigning them a note in front of each of the above criteria weighted according to its importance.
Third mission: If none existing meter match our multi-table criteria, nomination of the group of scripters responsible for improving the tool best suited ACCS or SPD.
Alanxo, a so lovely and unpretentious french corsair ! hahaha !
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Permalink Reply by Burnman Bedlam on
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Alanxo,
I am not proposing the development of a new meter. I am proposing development of a new combat/roleplay system, the meter is only a single part of the bigger picture. ;)
I shall address your three missions individually for ease of reading:
1) The determination of whether or not a system is open sourced is moot, in my opinion. I will not develop an open sourced combat system, as it will only allow exploitation and cheating on a very blatant level. Additionally, I would be hard pressed to participate if an open sourced system is chosen specifically for this reason. As it is, the SPD system is very easy to exploit.
2) Feel free to test all the meters you like. I've used a number of them in the past, and I doubt there is another meter out there specifically designed specifically for 17th century navel/melee/small arms combat with 17th century roleplay support included. I intend to continue my tests and "proof of concept" work in the meantime. If you find something better suited than what I propose in the meantime, then I will shift the focus of my project from contributory to commercial.
3) I have no experience with ACCS, as the test was withdrawn before I could participate. I can say with a good amount of certainty, however, that SPD would need to be completely rewritten to improve it to the level of quality I would expect from any scripted product in Second Life. SPD is a product which exists beyond the boundaries of Antiquity, so any changes made to the system by Chase would need to be done in a way which would not negatively effect all of those other communities. His system is proprietary, so you will not find anyone able to improve it much without his providing the scripts with open source. I doubt he will hand his business over so willingly. ;)
I certainly want feedback and input related to the project, but to be honest, I am not interested in getting mired down with committee. I've done that in the past with a couple of scripting projects, and it is always a flaming nightmare. In my experience, in both real and Second Life, it is best to put together a list of essential requirements and work from there. Changes are brought about in the testing phase, when a system sees actual use.
I will do my best to develop a secure, easy to use system which will integrate seamlessly into the Antiquity community without endangering anyone's investment in SPD/TSS. I have some ideas on how to do this without compromising the integrity of the new system.
My goal is not to rock the boat, but rather balance the ballast to help steady 'er. :)
Comments and suggestions related to the system as outlined in the initial post of this thread are welcome, and encouraged!
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Permalink Reply by Burnman Bedlam on
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Just a quick note...
I have not forgotten about this project, in fact, it's been fair winds and following seas on this journey! I've been working on a quite a few different aspects of the new system, and while a testable product will be some time in the making (good scripting isn't all rush & hurry lol) it is moving along rather nicely. ;)
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Permalink Reply by Quintus Beaumont on
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This is great to hear, Mr Bedlam. Although I look very much forward to your system, I also realize that these things take a lot of time. The best of luck for your worthy endeavour!
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Permalink Reply by Alanxo Etchegaray on
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happy too when i read that ! we all expect a solution and yours seems promising ! if you need help to test it, it ll be a pleasure to allow all time necessar for that ! :))
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